What can the profressionalisation of death metal in the early 90s tell us about the concept of the undergound in an era of hyper visibility?
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Hate Meditations 
I’m sure I’ll have more to say as I listen onwards, but to your assertion that death metal never had its “black album”, it most definitely did — Slaughter of the Soul (and, to a lesser extent, Wolverine Blues, Stop at Nothing, Morningrise, and whichever album catapulted Six Feet Under to popularity). Sure, you and I can tell that it isn’t death metal, but my mom can’t tell that the black album isn’t speed metal, either. With these albums, death metal as seen by a larger audience stopped being artistically underground, and was just “that music with the slammin’ grooves” and “that really, like, you know, progressive stuff man,” a shift which has allowed bands like Frozen Soul, Blood Incantation, Oceans of Slumber, Black Crown Initiate, and Gatecreeper to secure massive mainstream tours.
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Re: the claim that death metal as it exists today in the mainstream is largely a product of people wanting to test themselves against the genre that always goes to far — I simply don’t think that’s the case, based on what shows seem to get people going to them. In Dallas, far more people showed up to Possessed (with Uada in direct support) than showed up for Profanatica, even though the latter are unquestionably *the* bar in “going too far”. Death metal in the mainstream exists today insofar as it either reminds people of Pantera (the slammin’ groove variant and certain melodic variants) or Pink Floyd (the progressive variants and most melodic variants). Sad as it is, people are going to see Gatecreeper because they like the music, a truly bad sign for IQ levels all over the developed world.
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Again, in this context. not talking about metal fans who actually go to nominally metal gigs, but average Joe fans of music who’ve never heard of possessed and certainly profanatica, talking about people whose interaction with death metal might’ve been hearing a Cannibal corpse album once
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If that was the recent tour where Possessed played with Testament and Kreator then it is an unfair comparison. I am sure Profanactica could play to 50,000 people if they toured eith Metallica or 100,000 if they toured with Taylor Swift.
And what is wrong with big grooves? It was in death metal at the start of the genre. Bolt Thrower had big grooves on Realms of Chaos and In Battle There Is No Law. Autopsy had massive Sabbath style grooves on Severed Survival and Mental Funeral. There are even some awesome grooves on Carcass’ Symphonies of Sickness. Or Obituary’s Slowly We Rot or Entombed’s Clandestine. Or pretty much all of Morbid Angel’s discography – catchy, memorable and unique death metal (up to Gateways at least).
Grindcore also adopted grooves early as a counter point to blasts.
I have always liked my death metal with grooves. Yep I even regard Donination as one of my favourite Morbid Angel albums and love Napalm Death’s Diatribes.
And I will admit to loving Pantera and Lamb Of God too while I am at it. Even liked Blood Incantation’s Hidden History of the Human Race though I usually struggle with prog death outside of Atheist and Pestilence’s 1990s works.
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Nope, the Possessed tour I’m referring to had them as the headliners with Uada as direct support (and I don’t know if anyone else was with them, I tried to show up at the start of Possessed’s set, but mistimed it and showed up a few minutes into Uada’s set, and had to sit through that bunch of bullshit).
Big grooves, in most (although not all) cases would exclude a band from being “artistically underground” because it’s the sort of thing you throw in to be crowd pleasing and easily digestible. Most of Morbid Angel’s “grooves” in their pre-Covenant work (which is the only work any of us should really care about) is more of “anti-groove”; rhythms that are intended to be jagged and *not* easily noddable to create instability and chaos in their work (which, of course, reflects their lyrical themes). Go listen to the Browning versions (Browning was Morbid Angel’s best drummer, and a better fit for the band than Sandoval, who sanded down too many of their most interesting rough edges thanks to trying to bring a grindcore “extremity” to things that didn’t need it) of “Thy Kingdom Come” or “Abominations”; the rhythms aren’t “grooves” as usually meant, they’re weird halting beasts with stabs at strange moments specifically designed to stop the listener from nodding along happily.
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Those albums don’t count. Metallica became the biggest metal band on the planet after the black album. At the Gates broke up after SOTS, Entombed, Six Feet Under etc. achieved only moderate success. The point is it didn’t break death metal into the big time in the way a lot stakeholders expected at the time
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More critically those albums never even broke into the metal mainstream (Metallica, Iron Maiden Korn, RATM, Motley Crue) let alone overall mainstream.
Metallica are a household name, whereas Entombed, Six Feet Under, At The Gates are only well known in extreme metal circles.
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None of those albums broke death metal into mainstream like Black album did for Metallica. Your average non metal listening type knew that album very well in 1990s and early 2000s.
It is why Metallica tour large 50,000+ seat stadiums and hang around with Lady Gaga and easily coughed up $1 million as a sign up bonus for Rob Trujillo.
Most people who supposedly listen to metal (ie Metallica, Slipknot, Iron Maiden, Korn, RATM, Trivium etc fans) have never heard of At The Gates or Entombed or Six Feet Under.
They might have probably heard of Opeth and that is it. Even that isn’t a guarantee.
As for Blood Incantation playing massive tours, since when is playing anywhere from 500 -3,000 people a night playing to massive tour?
You make the massive error of assuming everyone in the world is a metal head. In reality it is a niche market and even the biggest of extreme metal bands are nothing in the grand scheme of total population
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When I was in 8th grade in the late ’90s, the same kids that were listening to Korn and Limp Bizkit were also listening to Six Feet Under; a few years later, those same kids were listening to the progeny of Slaughter of the Soul (namely Arch Enemy, In Flames, and Children of Bodom). The careers of those bands may have fallen off (especially in the case of SFU), but you’re underestimating how big they were 20-25 years ago.
Playing for >1000 people on most nights *is* a massive tour. That’s more than a mainstream name who is on the downside of their career is going to pull in. Names as big as Pitbull or Blink-182 are relegated to playing residencies in the Indian Reservation casinos in Oklahoma; a band like Blood Incantation is doing a lot more than that. A mainstream-recognized name like Willie Nelson or B.B. King would be doing good to pull 500 people a night; again, BI are doing a lot more than that. You’re drastically *overestimating* how many albums most mainstream artists move, and how many people show up at their shows; most of the bands you hear on “normie radio” are going to play a lot more county fairs than they are packed stadiums. The music industry isn’t what it was in the ’80s anymore.
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On what planet is 1000 a big gig? In early 2000s we used to average 400-500 for local bands that were unsigned. And that is in a provincial town in the arse end of Australia.
Never even heard of Pitbull. Blink 182 are a poor comparison as they are near defunct. But Offspring are playing 20,000 seaters here in Australia. Greenday are playing 53,000 seat stadiums (same as Metallica). Something like Korn plays 10 000. Megadeth Slayer played to about 4,500 when I saw them in Melbourne.
And yes I remember In Flames COB and Arch Enemy being huge. And those guys mainly aren’t progeny of Slaighter of the Soul.
In Flames formed at same time as At The Gates and already had released Lunar Strain and Subterranean by the time SotS was out.
Arch Enemy was formed by one Michael Amott who played in Carnage (formed 1988) and played in Carcass. Carcass are the real godfather of melodic death metal* both on Necroticism and Heartwork. Arch Enemy’s first handful of albums just followed what Amott was already doing in Carcass.
*Would also add Amorphis but Carcass were the big band here.
And by 1995 you also had Death release Symbolic which was also very much a melodic DM albums.
Heartwork is one of the key archetypes for melodic DM – listen to Carnal Forge, more deaths In Flames early Arch Enemy etc.
As for Children Of Bodom, not much Slaughter pf the Soul there. Their first couple were power metal ala 1990s Helloween r Gamma Ray with barky vocals.
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“In the early 2000s” is the difference. Concert attendance has absolutely cratered since then, at least in the U.S. Twenty years ago in the U.S. you could walk through the nightlife district of any city and there’d be local musicians playing to reasonably sized crowds in at least seven or eight different bars; now, there will be one bar that has a band being watched by about twenty people on a typical evening. In the U.S., since about 2010, even household names will frequently be playing venues that have a maximum capacity of 400 unless it’s Taylor Swift or Beyonce, and that venue will typically be half-empty. Live music is dead here, and if you can pull 150 consistently, you’re doing well.
Pitbull was a white-guy “rapper” who was famous in the U.S. and had a few Billboard top 10s (and two #1s, according to Wikipedia) around 2010 by virtue of being safe enough for suburban moms to listen to. By 2017, even though he was still actively releasing albums that were reaching the top 50, he was relegated to performing in Indian Reservation casinos (which, if you’re unfamiliar with the U.S., is a *far* cry from performing in a glitzy Vegas casino, and means you’re probably playing to a nearly empty room, the few people who are there being there solely in the hope of scoring some free booze). The live music scene in the US is that dead — you can have a top 50 album, and your live shows will be a long-term residency in the middle of nowhere in Oklahoma. If you’re consistently bringing in 1000 people, you’re doing *incredible* in the U.S. in 2024 — it wouldn’t be uncommon for a pseudo-aboveground tour to pull <100 even on a weekend (I once saw Voivod on a Saturday night, and only about 70 people showed up). A local unsigned band is lucky if they pull 20.
’90s power metal with scream-y vocals is largely what At the Gates was by the time they did Slaughter of the Soul (add in a bit of ’90s hardcore influence for the rest of it).
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Huh? What household names are playing 400 people. I just googled Offspring US tour 2023 and they were playing 16,000 – 20,000 capacity arenas. Same for Foo Fighters and Olivia Rodrigo* in 2024
Dare I even mention Taylor Swift – Eras tour – she averaged 67,000 per arena in the US alone.
*I have a 12 year old daughter so know more about pop than I want to.
Sure you get hasbeens that might have been big in 1980s but never managed to bust out more than that – The Knack or MC Hammer or Vanilla Ice perhaps. Those guys are probably playing 400 seat venues.
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My dad saw B.B. King in the early 2010s at a venue that seats 400, and it wasn’t full. Looking up bands that played at a particular DFW venue that has a max capacity of 450 (and, pre-covid, was the place that touring bands usually hit after Ridglea closed), among the bands that played there before the place closed during covid were Soulfly, Jackyl, Bad Religion, Alkaline Trio, Monster Magnet, Satan, Sepultura, Eve 6, Alien Ant Farm, Paul Gilbert, Static X, Gucci Mane, New Found Glory, The Faint, Black Flag, Blue Oyster Cult, UFO, Buckethead, Electric Six, Hatebreed, etc. No, Taylor Swift wasn’t playing that venue, but the bands playing that venue weren’t a bunch of underground acts, either… and they were booking a venue that can’t even hold 500 people. The Taylor Swifts and Metallicas of the world just aren’t representative of typical concert attendance.
If unsigned local bands are playing to crowds of 1000 in Australia, I can tell you that the same is *not* happening in the U.S. You have to be somewhat known to book a venue that holds a max of 450 people, and probably not fill it up.
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To some degree those bands you list are old hasbeens (in the grand scheme of music industry). Bands that were big in 1970s-90s (and some early 00s like Soulfly) BB King started on 1940s. Their fanbases are mainly old people or dying or grew out of the music decades ago.
In some ways it is amazing 40 year-50 year old bands like Maiden or Metallica can fill stadiums.
You certainly didn’t have 40-50 year old acts from 1930-40s filling large venues in 1980s.
And that is a condemnation of the stagnation of popular music as an industry and in some ways art form – Metallica, Iron Maiden, Offspring, Greenday, Pearl Jam should have fallen out of fashion decades ago.
But the scenic is financially broken and distorted guitar music no longer resonates with youth as it did once. Hence the whole genre including metal is essentially a zombie.
This is in my opinion a lot of what Hate Meditations is about.
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Excellent as always.
My own $0.02 about the modern scene: 1. The commercialism of 1990s has actually survived and in fact flourished since early 2000s. It has just been reduced in overall market ambitions. Think Nuclear Blast or Century Media as well as things like Hellfest or Wacken Open Air. A lot of smaller labels try to replicate this. In essence this is providing highly commercialised mini versions of what mainstream pop industry does for Taylor Swift and Beyonce fans. 2. That artistic stubborness of 1980-90s has been replaced with an acceptance that the final product configuration of the extreme metal product is extreme metal. But to offset the inability to produce a Black album and make millions, the extreme metal industry has adopted a more McDonalds type experience based on predictive reliability- ie similar sounding albums with glossy production. Most importantly they don’t rock the boat – there are no Loads, Risks or other potentially career destroying attempts at overtly commercial change. Instead the “selling out” is adopting a steady churn model eg one same sounding Amon Amarth or Kataklysm or Cradle of Filth album after another. 3. The above is exactly whay the modern fanbase wants be they young or old. Society has changed since 1980s and slick consumerism is rampant everywhere. No one really wants an alternative viewpoint, no one wants to invest too mich of themselves into something except in terms of mindless consumption. 4. The big thing that kills innovation is digital technology and in particular recording technology. Protools and other digital recording software are essentially easy mode. Most of the metal albums we love are the result of bands not knowing what they were doing in the studio. It was trial and error The most famous example of this is not metal but Thin Lizzu’s famous guitar sound is the result of a literal mistake. The studios themselves were bespkoethongs with their own limitations and advantages which forced experimentation as work grounds. So most bands simply write some generic music that covers all necessary tripes and then record it on same sounding pro tools. End result might as well have been made by AI. Anyway keep up the great work in 2025
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Re: your fourth point, have you ever actually used a DAW, or are you just parroting what you’ve seen other people say about them?
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Me and a buddy used digital software a long time ago when the tech was still new in early 00s. It was pretty easy even for a clueless hack like me.
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Also if you actually listen to so many albums today they mainly sound the same. In terms of production here is a few variations on a theme in each subgenre and that is it.
Nuclear Blast etc seems to have same type of plastic sounding production applied to all genres be they power, thrash, death, symphonic black etc etc.
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If you’ve used a DAW, then you know that you don’t just plug your audio files into it and have it spit out something that sounds just like the latest Andy Sneap produced album. The entire signal chain from guitar to pedals to amp to cab to mic to interface comes first, and yours and mine isn’t going to give you anything that sounds like the latest Delain album, and then there’s the drum kit, the room the drums are recorded in, the mics the vocalist uses, the ear of the producer (which ultimately matters far more than what plugins he has available), etc. The whole “Protools makes everyone sound the same!” argument is nonsense; everyone going to the same two or three producers is what makes everyone sound the same, but that has a long tradition dating back far before the onset of digital recording techniques (I mean, just listen to all of the Rick Rubin produced crap in the late ’90s).
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Instead of miking drums like it is 1960 you could use an electronic kit that inputs straight into the DAW like my brother, one of my mates and another drummer I know do. Triggers have been around for decades. Drumkit from Hell was new last time I was involved in 2005 and I am sure it has only just got better. Digital recording does make all shit sound the same. If everyone os working with same templates or tools, you are going to get similar or same sounding results. As mentioned listen to the Nuclear Blast back catalogue or mostcof the thrash albums on New Wave Of Thrash Metal YouTube.
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Reposting this so it appears in the reply chain properly (Shelly, feel free to delete the out-of-chain duplicate below):
If “digital recording does make all shit sound the same”, please point me to the tons of Nuclear Blast albums that sound like “Burning the Decadent” or “Male Patratis Sunt Atra Theatra Parata” (or even our demo, “Omens of Perdition”). All of those were recorded and mixed digitally as outlined above, and yet none of them sound like the typical modern metal production.
The ears and brains of the artists and engineers will always be the #1 factor as to how an album sounds. ProTools and digital recording aren’t what are making every album sound the same; musicians and producers wanting their albums to sound like that is what is making albums sound like that.
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Yet most albums sound identical I have heard your albums. They were OK. Not Nuclear Blast production but then I never said everyone followed the same tropes, merely that most did.
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If “digital recording does make all shit sound the same”, please point me to the tons of Nuclear Blast albums that sound like “Burning the Decadent” or “Male Patratis Sunt Atra Theatra Parata” (or even our demo, “Omens of Perdition”). All of those were recorded and mixed digitally as outlined above, and yet none of them sound like the typical modern metal production.
The ears and brains of the artists and engineers will always be the #1 factor as to how an album sounds. ProTools and digital recording aren’t what are making every album sound the same; musicians and producers wanting their albums to sound like that is what is making albums sound like that.
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